Curse

Morticia of Cyana · Dec 29, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I normally use survivors, because the AI targets foes with lesser HP first.

Sometimes I use radiant, but that depends on my build. You could mix survivor/radiant if you like. It works.

maxxfury · Dec 29, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morticia of Cyana

I normally use survivors, because the AI targets foes with lesser HP first.

does it not include armour levels in the targeting aswell? maybe im having a brain fart. /shrugs

^and Say hi to the angel sharks for me xD been a while!

Arrogant Bastard · Dec 29, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

If you take critical eye and enough IAS, mana should not be a problem for a melee assassin.

Morticia of Cyana · Dec 29, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

does it not include armour levels in the targeting aswell? maybe im having a brain fart. /shrugs

^and Say hi to the angel sharks for me xD been a while!

Yea sorry, both HP and armor level.

But as far as I noticed just having 1 of those 2 higher then average in your party helps.

I'll say hi!

Carinae · Dec 29, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Runes
Minor Dagger on headpiece
Minor Crit
Sup Vigor
Last 2 slots are optional. I prefer a minor shadow and a minor deadly, just for flexibility with builds. However, you could use two Vitaes.

Insignia
Survivors on all 5

Weapon
Zealous Daggers of Fortitude

You should end up around 600hp and 25e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Since the introduction of Crit Agility, Blessed is usually the best choice.

The life bonus from survivor is inferior to 10AL for general PvE purposes.

I....um.. is it? Convince me. With CA up, I'm at 95 armor. 95a vs. 105a doesn't seem like that much damage reduction to me. Now factor in armor-ignoring damage and degen and the extra hp seem nice. And if you've got bonds or are manually running PS then Blessed seems inferior.

Maybe I'm thinking of it wrong, I am on a ton of medicine now.

Bobby2 · Dec 29, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Survivor's because the only things I fear are AL-ignoring and spiky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Nightstalkers doesn't cover you when you're closing the gap to a mob, or when you're trying to kite. Basically the two situations where you most want to have full armor, you don't have it.

Spot on.

Chthon · Dec 30, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

I....um.. is it? Convince me. With CA up, I'm at 95 armor. 95a vs. 105a doesn't seem like that much damage reduction to me. Now factor in armor-ignoring damage and degen and the extra hp seem nice. And if you've got bonds or are manually running PS then Blessed seems inferior.

Maybe I'm thinking of it wrong, I am on a ton of medicine now.

Starting from 530 hp and 95AL, you can either get to 570 hp + 95 AL using Survivors or 530 hp + 105AL using Blessed. (We're leaving the weapon out for simplicity right now.)

Assume for a minute that all damage you will take is armor-sensitive. How much will it take to kill you?

Raw_Damage = Final_Damage / (2^((Attacker_Baseline - Your_Armor)/40))

Let's assume a lvl 30 caster attacker; the comparative result is going to be the same across the board.

So, we have:
Raw_Damage = 622 ~= 570 / (2^((90 - 95)/40))
vs
Raw_Damage = 687 ~= 530 / (2^((90 - 105)/40))

Foes have to dish out an extra 55 raw damage to kill you using the higher armor set vs the higher life set.

Now, what if raw damage were spread exactly evenly between armor-ignoring and armor-sensitive?

Raw Damage = Final_Damage / (.5 + .5*2^((Attacker_Baseline - Your_Armor)/40))

So, we have:
Raw_Damage = 595 ~= 570 / (.5 + .5*2^((90 - 95)/40))
vs
Raw_Damage = 598 ~= 530 / (.5 + .5*2^((90 - 105)/40))

Foes still have to dish out an extra 3 raw damage to kill you using the higher armor set vs the higher life set. That's about even.

Now, if you started getting into territory where more than half the raw damage coming your way was armor-ignoring, then the Survivor set would come out ahead. But how often does that happen in PvE?

I contend that a strong majority of damage coming from PvE foes in general is armor-sensitive, ergo, a reliable 10AL adds more to survivability than 40hp does, at least with a start state like the one you described. (And unreliable armor mods aren't worth using in any case.)

Edit:
In the case of PS or ProtBond, consider 2 categories of damage packets: Damage above the cap level and damage below the cap level.

Neither added armor nor added hp increases survivability against damage packets above the cap, since you will need the same number of hits to die in any case (10 for PS, 20 for ProtBond). Added hp will make you more expensive to heal because it raises your cap and lets through a larger absolute value each time. Added armor may make you marginally cheaper for a ProtBonder by pushing a few borderline hits under the cap level. Added armor is slightly better.

For damage below the cap level, the relationship is going to be exactly the same as outlined above. (If PS/ProtBond isn't triggering, you can pretend it isn't there.)

Carinae · Dec 30, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Now, if you started getting into territory where more than half the raw damage coming your way was armor-ignoring, then the Survivor set would come out ahead. But how often does that happen in PvE?

I contend that a strong majority of damage coming from PvE foes in general is armor-sensitive, ergo, a reliable 10AL adds more to survivability than 40hp does, at least with a start state like the one you described. (And unreliable armor mods aren't worth using in any case.)

First, thank you for the excellent post. I'm in no shape for mathematics right now.

Second, I always thought damage was about 2/3rds armor-ignoring. Isn't armor-sensitive just: Elemental damage and Base Weapon Damage? Everything else, including attack skills, ignores armor

Third, factor in degen. I don't mean party-wide -10 pips, but the -4 to -8 that YOU will inevitably have due to being melee in addition to actual damage. Survivors wins here. More health = Live longer = More chance of getting healed/dehexed/decond.

That's why I thought Blessed inferior in a PB/PS situation...degen. You wont need to worry about damage (and screw the bonder otherwise, he has bookoo energy), but degen becomes more of a problem. If you've gone through the trouble of bonding, it's a hard area. Which likely means serious degen. I don't think I've ever seen a human ER with cond OR hex removal.

Now, again, degen alone isn't troublesome, but combined with real damage and it can get you, which is where the extra HP helps.

Thoughts?

EDIT: And yes, much of the answer to this depends on the area/zone/dungeon.

EDIT2: The reason I'm asking is because I used to think exactly what you stated, and I ran Blessed on several heroes and one of Cars sets. Then I changed to Survivors and subjectively it felt like I survived much better. Now, I'm wondering if it's placebo-effect, but I don't really think so. So lets discuss.

AtomicMew · Dec 30, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

25e does not equal 20e, nor does 4 pips of regen equal 2 pips of regen.

Right, but the fact remains that radiant will necessarily help in a SA build. Whether it helps in an MS/DB build is arguable, but I find it very hard to justify survivor/nightstalkers either when you can just manual PS/SB on yourself with at almost zero cost, which you should be doing anyway.

Also, the fact that sin has 4 pips doesn't matter because the bulk of energy gain comes from zealous/crits.

Xenomortis · Dec 30, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I contend that a strong majority of damage coming from PvE foes in general is armor-sensitive, ergo, a reliable 10AL adds more to survivability than 40hp does, at least with a start state like the one you described. (And unreliable armor mods aren't worth using in any case.)

This one point I disagree with. A lot of the scary damage is armour-dependent; that would be the stuff from elementalists etc. These are what you notice the most and form the majority of the spike damage that can quickly kill you if you're unprepared.
But pressure - conditions, degen, lots of physicals or indeed just lots of nukes stacking up - a lot of that is armour ignoring.

The rest of the post I'm fine with, but I haven't checked the maths myself.

_Nihilist_ · Dec 30, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Right, but the fact remains that radiant will necessarily help in a SA build. Whether it helps in an MS/DB build is arguable, but I find it very hard to justify survivor/nightstalkers either when you can just manual PS/SB on yourself with at almost zero cost, which you should be doing anyway.

Also, the fact that sin has 4 pips doesn't matter because the bulk of energy gain comes from zealous/crits.

Just because you're running a Shadow Arts build doesn't mean that you need the extra energy from Radiant insignias. A full set of Radiants gives you +8e. It depends on the build you're running as to whether or not the Radiants are going to be necessary.

The fact that an Assassin has 4 pips of regen does matter, quite a bit, in fact. It's what allows the Assassin to fulfill a caster-type role in addition to melee, and it definitely allows the Assassin to fulfill their melee role considering all Assassin attack skills are fueled by energy, not Adrenaline. 2 pips of regen = 2e every 3 seconds, whereas 4 pips = 4e every 3 seconds, or 1.3e/second, double the base claim.

And yes, Assassins gain most of their Energy through Critical Strikes, but just because they have that mechanic doesn't mean that you can completely ignore the increased energy regen, it does affect energy gain.

AtomicMew · Dec 30, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

Just because you're running a Shadow Arts

I'm not talking about shadow arts. I have no clue where you got that idea from.

Quote:

And yes, Assassins gain most of their Energy through Critical Strikes, but just because they have that mechanic doesn't mean that you can completely ignore the increased energy regen, it does affect energy gain.

Even if sins had 2 pips, they could still easily play MS/DB with no energy problems thanks to crits/zealous.

Look, the point is not where the energy comes from, but the fact that sins experience energy swings and high variation, meaning radiant should at least be considered. SA builds can be pretty energy intensive and getting another SA chain before running out of energy can be crucial.

So basically:
for SA radiant.
for MS/DB whatever.

In the end, if you're just running MS/DB, armor insignia is pretty marginal and the best armor is the one that provides you the biggest margin of error. If you're looking for defensive insignia, I'd throw my vote in with Saboteur's. Most elemental damage should be over the PS threshold anyway, which is a wash, and slashing I'm pretty sure is the most common type of physicals.

Xenomortis · Dec 30, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I'm not talking about shadow arts. I have no clue where you got that idea from.

You've been using "SA" a lot. I've been taking that to mean Shattering Assault, but I suspect he thought you meant Shadow Arts.

I can understand the use of Radiant - crit rates drop considerably in hard mode when facing high level enemies and your energy can suffer for it. You can either make sure you can churn out a chain on your initial energy bar, or ensure a way of scoring crits. Crit Eye only does so much.

_Nihilist_ · Dec 30, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

My mistake for reading Shadow Arts where you meant Shattering Assault trcvrs; seeing as how it was never explicitly stated, and a lot of this Thread is general info, I took it as the former.

They might not be the most efficient builds, but I've seen plenty of Assassins running Shadow Arts on their bars and burning through their energy by triggering unnecessary skills, only to screw themselves over when it's time for their combo chain.

AtomicMew · Dec 31, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

My mistake for reading Shadow Arts where you meant Shattering Assault trcvrs; seeing as how it was never explicitly stated, and a lot of this Thread is general info, I took it as the former.

Okay, sorry. I'm so used to going into HA and seeing "GLF SA ranger r3+" that I didn't even make the connection that SA could mean shadow arts.

Chantastic · Jan 02, 2010, 10:44 AM // 10:44

....

Survivor!

/leave thread

MasterSasori · Jan 03, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Survivor is always a solid choice.

Or you can do your mathematics and witchcraft and figure out that so and so is better in this situation or that situation. Honestly it won't matter much because

1. It's PvE.
2. If your computer lags and your monk sucks, you're still gonna die.

Tenebrae · Jan 03, 2010, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Survivor is always a solid choice.

Or you can do your mathematics and witchcraft and figure out that so and so is better in this situation or that situation.

Yeah well , survivor is always the choice of "i dont know what to choose" but yes , ppl like to do maths as hell to defend what they think its the best option but Survivor is basically an HP boost that can be achieved with an additional HP weap set and pretty much only works in 1-2 hits , after that , you dont have more HP than someone with radiant . Same can be said of radiant and bla bla but the fact remains that with the build this user posted .... you are gonna be attacking almost always and if theres no ench removal where he is going to play (cause he only has CA)then Nightstalker or Blessed are the best.
Im not going to "witchcraft" nothing about "im going to have always PS on me with a hero" or "i always play with my imbagon guild mate so i dont need armor" or whatever.

_Nihilist_ · Jan 05, 2010, 02:40 PM // 14:40

No biggie. It's all from perspective, and we each see things from a different vantage point.

Anyways, with the HoM, I don't think there's a reason not to have multiple armor sets. Now choosing which insignias to put on each armor set... that makes my head spin, lol.

HigherMinion · Jan 06, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

When running with Prot Spirit, Prot Bond, Save Yourselves! or any other armour buffing/damage mitigation skills- Survivors makes so much more difference.

If you have armour-boosting insignias/runes, and someone uses SY!, it's almost a waste, isn't it? Because they won't stack. And I would not use blessed/attunment because it doesn't help you maintain your energy; it just gives you a little tiny bit more in the beginning.

Survivors is definitely the way to go.